In this episode I talk about Ariana Grande being sued over posting to Instagram, Nikon releases their 2.0 Firmware with EyeAF, Adobe updates Lightroom with a new Texture Slider and also rename Lightroom Classic CC and Lightroom CC, but there is still name confusion. DJI release their Osmo Action camera as a direct competitor to the GoPro and more in this episode.
Ariana Grande Lawsuit:
Adobe Texture Control
Nikon EyeAF video by Jared Polin, AKA FroKnowsPhoto
DJI Osmo Action
One of my Landscape photos on today’s Tony and Chelsea Live!
Transcription by temi.com there may be grammatical errors.
Liam 00:01 Ariana Grande being sued for posting photos of herself on Instagram. DJI unveils the Osmo action to rival the Gopro. Adobe adds a texture control slider to light room and camera raw and Nikon finally releases their firmware, which gives their z six and z seven cameras. Eye Detect autofocus all this and more on episode 20 of the Liam Photography podcast.
Liam 00:58 welcome to the Liam photography podcast. I’m your host Liam Douglas and this is episode 20 I want to thank all the listeners for subscribing, rating, and reviewing and iTunes and any other software that you might be using to listen to this podcast. We appreciate you all so much and appreciate you listening every week to our new episodes, whether they’re just camera news or interviews. We appreciate y’all so much. Be sure to stop by the lamb photography podcast, Facebook group and join so you can stay up on the no and you’re also welcome to post your own photos there. Made sure that they are photos that you took yourself. Do not steal other people’s photos and post them to the group or you will be banned. Everyone is free to join. The group. The only requirement is that you answer a simple question, which is the name of the host of this podcast, which is myself, Liam, and I do that to keep the bots and spammers and advertisers and all that other garbage out of the group so that people can enjoy it more.
Liam 01:57 All right, so let’s get on with episode 20 of the lamb photography podcast. Ariana Grande Day is being sued for posting photos of herself on Instagram. So if you know anything about a little bit of the history with Ariana Grande’s, she’s a pop star I guess. Uh, here in the U S I don’t know a whole lot about her. Um, I only listened to eighties music myself. That was the era I grew up in, but she made headlines a couple of months ago for striking back at what she called greedy photographers with a concert tour or photo contract that demands that she retains full copyright for any photos taken of her at any averse shows and concerts. But now the singer is being sued by a photographer for posting his photos of her without permission on Instagram. So apparently back in August of 2018 the 25 year old grand day posted side by side photos of herself leaving a building while holding a bag displaying word sweetener, which apparently was the name of her fourth studio album.
Liam 03:05 The caption read happy sweetener day, but it turns out those photos were shot by New York based Paparazzi photographer Robert Barbara who says grand aid never asked for or received his permission to publish the shots. Barbara just filed a copyright infringement lawsuit against Grind Day yesterday in the US District Court for the southern district district of New York. Barbara is the author of the photographs and has at all times been the sole owner of all right title and interest in and to the photographs, including the copyright there to the lawsuit states Rondae in fringed on his copyright in the photographs by reproducing and publicly displaying the photographs on her Instagram page. And apparently it’s kind of a big deal because I guess she has like 154 million followers just on Instagram. Uh, it says Grand Day is not and has never been licensed or otherwise all authorized to reproduce, publicly displayed, distribute or use his photographs.
Liam 04:09 The photographer is demanding either 25,000 for each of the photos or profits ground a generated from posting it to our 154 million plus followers on Instagram. That post has racked up at least 3 million, 392,000 likes prior to it being taken down. And this is according to the lawsuit. So it’ll be interesting to see how this one plays out in the courts. I’m sure they’ll probably reach some sort of settlement agreement. A lot of times that’s what happens with these kinds of cases. Um, but it is interesting that, you know, I’m, like I said, I don’t know a whole lot about her and I’m not, and I’m not trying to bash or anything, but I mean, I’m sorry, but to me she’s got one heck of an ego thinking that anybody that takes photographs or heard any of her shows or concerts is just going to forfeit all rights to their photos to her.
Liam 04:58 And she can do whatever she wants with them. And people have talked about this on other podcasts and youtube videos and I agree with what a lot of them say, just don’t sign the release. It’s as simple as that. Um, you’d be crazy to give up your rights to your own work. And as somebody who is an artist herself, I think it’s kind of ridiculous for her to expect other artists to surrender their copyrighted works to her. Um, just because she’s a musician. Uh, I just think that’s totally out of whack and she’s definitely off the rails with that, with that whole a concert photography contract that she’s trying to force on, on everybody at all of her shows nowadays. I, the girls got one heck of an ego if you ask me. But like I said, that’s the latest news on the situation with her and it’s like I said, it’s going to be interesting to see how it plays out, but I, I’m assuming that more than likely they’ll reach some sort of settlement outside of court.
Liam 05:58 Uh, I mean it’s possible it could go through the entire court process, but you know, usually people like this, uh, in cases like this, they usually settle them out of court. So I imagine that’s probably what’s going to happen in this case. So the next episode or item I wanted to talk about on this episode is Dji unveils the Osmo action camera to rival the Gopro. So if you know anything about action cameras, of course Gopros, not the only company that makes them, but they’ve been pretty much the top dog ever since they came on the scene. They started the action camera craze, um, and the gentleman that founded a Gopro, a was the surfer himself and he kind of put together what he did. Originally it was, he bought these inexpensive Chinese cameras and then he created his own waterproof housings for them and wrist straps and he sold them to other servers up and down the California coast.
Liam 06:55 And that’s how his company got started. And so he was the first one to create the action camera and the action camera craze. And then of course other people have gotten involved. Sony’s got their align. Other companies have done action cameras, there’s a lot of Chinese knockoffs to the Gopro, but use the same mounts and everything. Um, but Gopro has always been the top dog. And this is really interesting because Dji of course is the top name and drones and drone photography and cinematography a, their drones are used by a Hollywood for a lot of movies and TV shows because it’s a lot cheaper than hiring a crane trucks, um, and having to pay 80, $90,000 a day for a camera truck to follow a, a hero car down streets and stuff like that and shoot the footage from the crane boom or whatever it is on the truck and stuff like that.
Liam 07:47 So a lot of, a lot of studios have gone use the Dji drones for those kind of shots. Uh, too much success. And it saves the studio a ton of money because like I said, the old way with using those boom trucks, you paid 80, $90,000 a day to rent those trucks. And then of course, you had to pay the driver and the camera operator that was in the boom and all that stuff. And nowadays they can go out and buy two or three of the Dji, um, as, um, um, inspire. I think it’s the inspire one drones, um, which are the, uh, the commercial grade drones the Dji makes. And, um, you, you know, a studio can buy three, four, or five of those. I mean, yeah, they’re not cheap or three to 5,000 a piece, but when you’re a multibillion dollar studio, that’s chicken feed, you know, and he could buy four or five of those drones and use them over and over and over again, and you’re still saving a ton of money versus, you know, renting one of those boom trucks and, you know, hiring a driver and a boom operator and all that stuff.
Liam 08:53 And the Nice thing about the commercial d Dji drones is they can actually be set up and controlled with two radio controllers at the same time. So you can have two people, um, working each one of the drones. You can have a person that’s the pilot flying the drone and a separate person who’s the camera operator. Are you using the, the uh, sister remote and, um, so, and I say it like I said, a saves the studios a lot of money. But anyways, I’m getting off track here. So anyways, Dji has announced the Osmo Action Camera, which is a new product that they’re just coming onto the market with and go pro tried to rival Dji drones back in 2016 and I’m sure you might be aware by launching the Dji a Karma. But I mean, I’m sorry, the Gopro Karma, uh, but it wasn’t a very good drown and they ended up having to recall them all because they had a lot of issues.
Liam 09:47 They ended up discontinuing the entire, a Karma drone line in less than two years. So now Dji has decided they’re going to return the favor by releasing their own action camera. And the thing that’s interesting as it looks like it does take a similar amount to the Gopro, if not, um, the same kind of mounting system. So I don’t know if there’s any kind of copyright infringement there. I wouldn’t think so. Uh, I don’t know for sure. But like I said, there’s a lot of Chinese companies that make their own action cameras that are very similar to the Gopro and the mounts are exactly the same, but then again, China does not or anybody else’s intellectual property or trademarks or patents or anything like that. So that’s probably how they’ve been getting away with it. But, um, the thing that’s interesting about the Osmo action camera is the fact that it has two screens.
Liam 10:38 So the Gopro in a way has two screens. It has a touch screen on the back, which you can preview your footage, um, Adrian shooting it or your stills. You can swipe it, uh, to go through the menu and the preferences and all that good stuff. But on the Gopro, and I have a few of the Gopros, the screen on the front is a plain black LCD screen and it generally just shows you what mode you’re in. Um, how many minutes of battery life you have left, how many shots you have electric are doing stills versus videos. And you know, how many minutes of video record time you have left, stuff like that. But the difference with this Osmo action is the screen on the front is a full color selfie screen. So if you’re into using action cameras, you can set up your shots, frame your shots a lot better with the Osmo action camera because the fact that it has a selfie screen on the front of it, it’s full color instead of just the black LCD screen that the Gopro has.
Liam 11:45 So it’s definitely gonna gonna shake up the market quite a bit. And just like the hero seven, the Osmo action does have built in stabilization. And I was, uh, my girlfriend and I were watching Kai Juan’s a video about this camera the other day, I think it was yesterday or the day before on you on his youtube channel. And he demonstrated the builtin stabilization and it does work really, really well. Uh, and in many cases that actually did a better job of stabilizing than the builtin stabilization of the hero seven black. So it’s definitely going to shake up the action camera world. And the other thing that’s interesting is the retail price for the Osmo action is $349. So they’re even selling their camera for 50 bucks less than the GoPro seven black goes for. Although I’m Gopro has done sales on the seven black where you can get a better price on it and stuff like that.
Liam 12:45 You can save some money and made various times, you can get a, you can get a coupon code from them that’s good for like 10 days that you can use on air webstore and save a hundred bucks off the price. So, but it’s definitely going to be interesting now that a Dji has decided to get into the action camera market. And you know, I honestly think he did it too. It’s kind of a slap back to a few Gopro for trying to get into their market with the wood, their failed drone, you know, in the last few years that, you know, that just fizzled out real, real miserably. And of course Dji still dominates the drone market and I don’t think there’s going to be any kind of con serious competition for them anytime soon. There’s a couple of other companies that make, okay. Drones, uh, other Chinese companies because Dji is a Chinese company, um, and their drones are so, so, but uh, you just don’t see people snatching them up like you do the, the Dji Phantom line, especially in the inspire line.
Liam 13:46 Um, those things just sell like hotcakes. It’s, it’s crazy how popular their drones are, but it oh yeah. And Looking, I’m scrolling down the, uh, the article about the Osmo action and that does use the exact same mounting system as the Gopro. So that’s definitely interesting right there. Um, I, like I said, I don’t know if Gopro has that mount, um, copyrighted or trademarked or patented or whatever you want to call it. But, uh, apparently not. And now the Osmo action is slated to hit store shelves on May 22nd. So the, this new drug, uh, Action Camera, I’m sorry, not drunk. This new action camera will be out soon. Um, it is capable of shooting at 10 80 p 30 frames a second. It has dual microphones, a speaker, slow motion, eight x at 10 80 p 240 frames per second or four x at 10 ADP at 120 frames per second.
Liam 14:42 It does time lapse manual exposure and it has and you know, like, uh, like I was saying a minute ago, it has compatibility with a large ecosystem of accessories because it uses a lot of the same third party accessories as the actual Gopro. So it’s definitely gonna make things interesting. Um, it can shoot four K at 60 frames a second just like the, uh, the Gopros, Ken. So it’s definitely going to create some turbulence. I have a feeling in the action camera market. Now. I’ve got some, but I got this information on this action camera, not only from Kai’s video but also from an article on Petty pixel.com and I will make sure that I include the article, uh, the Pettit Pixel article in the show notes for this episode so that you can check out the demonstration videos that are there from Dji is a youtube channel and you can check us out for yourself.
Liam 15:33 It’s definitely a, an interesting little camera. It’s a great little action. Cameras, fully waterproof and everything, um, without a special housing like the newer, uh, Gopros are. So I think it’s really going to shake up the extra action camera market and it’s going to be interesting to see, um, exactly what this means for Gopro. Because if you know anything about Gopro, they’d been kind of, the company has been kind of dying the last uh, few years, uh, just with some of the crazy stuff, the founder and CEO of the company and financially and some other things he’s done. Uh, their, their stocks took a huge hit and uh, they haven’t been doing a very good job at recovering. So, uh, with this new challenger, with this new camera from Dji, it might be a sounding the desk bell for Gopro. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
Liam 16:24 All right, the next uh, object or item I wanted to get to you in this episode. Now, Adobe recently updated light room. And if you didn’t already know, um, one of the things would light room more recently since they’ve gone to their creative cloud subscription licensing for all of their software, Adobe, that is uh, Adobe made things kind of confusing because they came out with a cloud only version of light room that you could still run on your machine. But it has to be constantly tied to the Internet because it’s a cloud based version of light room. And they decided to name that one Adobe Lightroom cc and the standalone software, which now also has a subscription. Um, you can’t get a, a permanent license key like you could in the old days they called that version Adobe Lightroom classic cc. And it was extremely confusing for everybody because both of them had Lightroom cc in their name so people would get mixed up on which one was the cloud only version, which one was the desktop version that they were used to using.
Liam 17:31 When, you know, when Adobe did the whole cs line, uh, creative suites, you know, one through six and so on and so forth. While with their most recent update, Adobe has decided to rename light room again. So now from what I can see, they are calling the cloud only version of light room, Adobe light room and the standalone program that runs on your desk but still has to talk to the Internet to verify you have a license at least, um, is now called light room classic. So I don’t know if that’s going to help people a whole lot as far as the confusion and that with the similar naming, I’m not sure if that’s going to help her or if it’s going to be just as confusing for a lot of people as it was when it was Lightroom cc and Lightroom classic cc. Um, but they did make that name change recently and the new update, uh, I think it’s eight dot.
Liam 18:29 Three also introduces a new slider control slider in the develop module for both light room and camera rall called the texture control. And this slider is really cool. I’ve actually played around with a little bit. Uh, the Nice thing about this is you can give more emphasis to textures in your images. Um, you can raise the texture, the quality of the texture, or you can take some of the way. In other words, you can, you can, you can modify the intensity of textures in your photos, whether it’s spoilage in a landscape shot or, uh, let’s say, uh, the details and the tires on a race car that you photographed in a NASCAR or formula one race or something like that. And you can also use it with portraits. Um, although I would suggest going very, very easy with using this in portraits or you’re going to end up with some really weird stuff going on in my opinion anyways.
Liam 19:30 I mean, I, I’ve seen in other photographers have talked about seeing, you know, people over process their photos and uh, uh, you know, especially their portraits and the people end up looking like they’re made out of plastic instead of being an actual, you know, flesh and blood human being. Um, but this texture slider is definitely interesting and, and it’s nice to have, it’s a, you know, a new item for the develop module and a loop deck. If you have a loop Jack plus, um, editing keyboard like I do, they just recently released an update for the new version of light room. There a loop deck setup software. Uh, they originally released version two, six two. Dot. Six. Dot. Two yesterday, uh, which was supposed to be for the New Light Room and give you the ability to control the texture slider with one of the dials on the loop deck plus keyboard.
Liam 20:21 Uh, but they made a mistake, um, that they didn’t catch in quality control of their code. Um, so I installed a, the new version of the loopback software and all of a sudden I didn’t have support at all for light room anymore. And it was because when Lupe deck released their update, they forgot about the fact that Adobe had changed the names on light room. And so their software wasn’t looking for the new folder name on Mac or windows. It was looking for the old folder name. So since it wasn’t finding the folder, it just didn’t give you the option to use the, the editing keyboard would light room at all. And I, uh, made Luke deck aware of that on their Facebook page and they were kind enough to, uh, release an update this morning, two dot. Six Dot. Three which fixes the issue in Mac.
Liam 21:11 But as of the time I’m recording this podcast, they have not released to dot six dot. Three for windows, yet I can only assume they’re still working on it. So if you do have a loop deck plus editing keyboard, you cannot update two, two dot six dot three which will give you all of your functionality for the latest updated version of light room, a eight dot three. And you’ll have the ability to control the new texture slider with editing and keyboard. And, uh, you’ll be here, you’ll be a happy editor again. But, uh, so the texture or share similarities with existing controls, the nondestructive tool ranges from minus to plus 100 minus 100 to plus 100. Um, and it’s somewhat between positive clarity and sharpening and on the negative end at something like noise reduction. So it’s, it’s similar to those other tools but gives you more control.
Liam 22:07 Uh, the sharpening works on the high frequency, quote unquote high frequency areas of a photograph, uh, the edges and find details, texture targets, the mid frequency areas. Um, so like I said, if you have a landscape photo in which you’d like more definition and some shrubs, uh, jacking up sharpening all the way causes noise in the photo to overwhelm the extra detail that you get. But if you turn up texture all the way, certain details or enhanced while noise is largely unaffected. So that is definitely a, a bit of a game changer for those of us that are using light room. Um, and I will post a link to the article about, uh, the texture slider, a also for pet pixel where you can see some demonstrations, uh, that light or our Adobe has released with this, uh, where you can see the before and after with using the, uh, the uh, texture slider and poor crits landscapes and things like that.
Liam 23:05 And it’s really cool. Uh, there’s also a testing out the new Adobe light room slider texture video, um, at the bottom of that article. So you can, you can play back that video and watch that as well. And I think that that’s pretty cool and something that a lot of people are, are probably going to enjoy in their editing, especially if, like I said, if you’re a light room user, which a lot of people are like, rooms still wanted the most popular if not the most popular, um, editing photo editing software on the market. And there are some other really good ones out there, lumen, uh, especially with version three of women are and I think they just updated the three.one yesterday. Uh, they added libraries and some other features that you have in light room as matter of fact. Luminaires kind of cool because in many ways it’s like a combination of light room Photoshop because unlike light room and luminar you can do layers and stuff like that.
Liam 24:01 Um, where on the Adobe side you have to go take your photo from Lightroom to Photoshop to do layers and then save it back into light room. So that has definitely, uh, definitely some new and interesting things for, for everybody to using a light room. And I think you’ll enjoy the texture slider. I know I have, I’ve only played around with it a little bit, but I think it’s really, really cool. Now, the last item I wanted to talk about in this episode is Nikon has officially released the firmware update for their z six and z seven. Meryl is full frame cameras, which now you have those two cameras. The ability to have I detect auto focus and it’s okay. Uh, Jared Poland, uh, released a video to his youtube this morning on how well it works and he compared it to Sony and Canon by using the three cameras set up side by side on tripods with a Atomos recorders tied into him too.
Liam 24:59 You could see exactly what’s going on directly through the viewfinder of the camera. And he recorded, he did a great job of this video. The, the big takeaways are that Nikons, I detect autofocus. It works fairly decent. It’s nowhere as near as good as Sonys of course. And, and neither is Canon’s for that matter on the Eos are, um, but it works halfway decent. Uh, the autofocus system does tend to get confused. Um, if a person turns away from the camera so that the I detect auto focus can no longer attract their eyes or they move out of the frame and come back and you could see all listened Jerrod’s video. Uh, I’ll put a link to that in the show notes as well. Jared does a great job of demonstrating, um, are, are showing his viewers how the I detect auto focus works and how it stacks up to Sony and cannons.
Liam 25:52 Uh, but it does, if the person moves out of the frame and then back into the frame, the autofocus system, we’ll sometimes get confused and it’ll stay locked on an object that’s in the background and not go back to the person when they come back into the frame. Um, it does work from a greater distance away from the camera than canons currently does. A Sony still works by far for much further away from the camera than anybody else’s of course, because Sony has had the technology for a lot longer. So of course there’s is more ironed out and more perfected. But this is a really, really good start to the, I detect auto focus for Nikon. So they, you know, they finally gotten to the party. They got there later than everybody else, but they did get to the party and their first version of, I detect auto focus does work halfway and um, I can only expect that they’re going to make massive improvements to it as time goes forward.
Liam 26:50 You know, with new firmware updates, uh, down the road, I’m sure both Canon and Nikon, we’ll make massive improvements to their, I detect autofocus. Uh, the new firmware version is too. Dot. Oh, just to let you know that you can go over to Nikon support site on Nikon USA website and download the update now the Nikon, um, just like the canons, it’s really quick and easy to do a firmware update. You download the firmware, our file for your camera model, whether it’s the six or the seven, and you just copy the file into the root of your SD card, pop the SD card into the camera, go through the menu to the firmware section in the menu. Tell it you want to update to a new firmware. It’ll check the SD card and we’ll see the new file. It’ll say, this is the version you have.
Liam 27:36 Is this the version you’re going to go to? You confirm and, and it does the install, uh, which is the same way Canada does things. I’ve never done a firmware update on a Sony, but I know, uh, from Jared talking about in his video and Tony a Northrop as well, talking about in videos, I guess on Sony Cameras, a firmware update is a real bear. It can be extremely difficult to pull off, uh, just because they don’t have a straightforward, simple and easy way to do it like Canon and Nikon do. So Canon and Nikon definitely had the leg up on Sony when it comes to implementing firmware updates. Now in addition to adding I detection to the aff for detecting and tracking subject’s eyes, it cameras are also getting improved. Autofocus performance in low light from minus one to minus two eve in the z seven minus two to minus 3.5 EDB on the z six and minus four Eby to minus six e v on the z six in low light a f mode.
Liam 28:38 Now one of the catches and well on the Nikon with using the IDA tech auto focus is you have to have area autofocus turned on. So in other words, unlike the Canon and the Sony, you can’t use a single AAF point. And I detect auto focus together. A Nikon does not allow that. You have to have all out of focus points enabled in order to be able to, um, enable the, I detect auto focus, which I think is kind of a crappy way to, to deploy it. But like I said, it’s a start and one can only assume that in a future version of the firmware they’ll give you more control, uh, with being able to use a single point, autofocus point and still use the, I detect auto focus at the same time. We’ll have to wait and see if that does flesh out that way.
Liam 29:27 In a future version a, the, I detect aff for still photography is highly anticipated feature that detects and focuses on humanize and both AFS and AFC using the auto area f mode only when the eyes and multiple subjects are detected, the multiselect or, or some selector can be used to select the eye upon which the cameras should focus. This is coming from Nikon. This enables precise focus on the eye of the intended individual even when looking through the electronic view finder. Now one thing that you will see, and Jared Polin Aka fro knows photos, a video as a, that the, I detect autofocus box on the icons a bit larger than it is on the Sony. And when Canon did their firmware update, their last one, uh, go on to, uh, I think it was one dot two. Dot Zero from one.one.zero. Um, Dannon actually gave you the option has smaller autofocus boxes.
Liam 30:29 You could, you have the normal size, which was larger than a smaller size, which is what I prefer on the Nikon. You can’t do that. There are, there are auto focus boxes are a bit bigger and a coordinated Jareds testing. And his video, one of the downsides of that is the, I detect autofocus, we’ll frequently lock onto the subjects eye lashes instead of their eye. Um, so they do still have some, some bugs and issues that they’ve got to flesh out in that, but I’m sure, you know, in a future firmware update, it’s going to be, you know, they’re good. They’ll get things more ironed out just like Gannon. Well, and it’s not going to be too long before Nikon. And so our canon will be able to give Sony a real run for their money on the, I detect autofocus side. We’ll have to wait and see.
Liam 31:14 Uh, like I said right now, Sony is the king when it comes to that, but the other two are actually in the party now and so it’s Fuji. Fuji does have a, I detect auto focus as well and some of their cameras. So it’s definitely going to be interesting to see how this goes. You know, how things go moving forward. But it definitely makes things a lot greater for all of those of us. The enjoy photography, whether you’re doing it as a hobby or as a paid professional, uh, the more useful technology and tools you can have in your camera, the better it is for everybody. Right. I did have one other item I wanted to talk about on this week’s episode and it almost completely slipped my mind. Um, and it is a little bit exciting. Uh, Janice and I, as I was out doing my real estate photography and we were riding in the car today, we were watching the, a youtube video for Tony and Chelsea Northrop’s live show that they do every Thursday at 4:00 PM on Youtube.
Liam 32:11 And they were critiquing landscape photography this week. And I had actually submitted one of my photographs that I shot back in 2014 of a sunrise on Tybee island, Georgia with the sun coming up over the Atlantic Ocean. And the photo has been really popular on Getty images. I’ve sold about 800 copies of it the last couple of years, um, which I’m, I’m pretty proud of and I was really stoked that they actually chose my photo is of the ones that they critiqued on their youtube channel today. So I’ll also put the link in the show notes to the, a segment of their video where they’re looking at my photographs from talking about it and, uh, my listeners can check it out for themselves. All right, so that is all I wanted to talk about in this episode of the podcast, the Liam photography podcast, episode 20. I want to thank all of my listeners again for subscribing, rating, and reviewing and iTunes or wherever else you may be listening to us from. And that includes Spotify. And I will see you next time. In episode 21